It's a provocative title, but this is more of a work in progress stance for me. I'm starting to think that trans people do not exist. What I mean by this is that I'm finding myself drawn towards an alternative theory that when someone identifies as trans, they've fallen prey to a gender conformity system that is too rigid. I'd like some feedback on this position.
When I talk to people inside trans communities the argument against transmedicalism is typically big tent logic. "We want to avoid having overly prescriptive definitions of what it means to be trans because that discourages exploration and leads to a lot of "am I *really* trans" which is counterproductive because goodharting, among other things.
That said, I can't think of anyone I know personally who simultaneously identifies as trans and is not at least taking cross sex hormones, surgery is somewhat less common but I'm an outlier among my trans friends in considering surgery to be completely off the table.
I think the critique here applies much better to non-binary people.
I think when trans people talk about what it is to be a woman there's a miscommunication, because for people early in transition their focus is often on passing. Passing is a goal because it makes you less vulnerable and means you'll be gendered correctly more consistently, misgendering tends to trigger neuroses because it reminds you of the ways you fail to pass, typically with a focus on secondary sex characteristics.
Ime it's pretty common for trans women far along in their transition to be much less overtly feminine because they no longer have anything to prove, to themselves or others.
This notion that trans people commonly focus on gender stereotypes as a defining aspect of their identity is, ime, just totally wrong. I personally consider myself a tomboy, one of my MtF friends considers themselves to be butch.
And, frankly trans people tend to focus much more on *trans* stereotypes than binary gender stereotypes i.e "I'm definitely a transwoman because I was so focused on an algebraic topology textbook I forgot to eat until 7pm"
If there is a better article that sums up my particular thoughts and feelings about this subject, I've yet to find one. I am 100% right there with you.
> If being treated like a woman is hard to put into words, is it easier to describe what being treated like a man was like? Would it be easier to describe it in terms of the difference between the two? I see the phrase "treated as a X" used often, but I find it very very odd how little elaboration there is.
I don't know where you grew up, but I grew up in a non-western society with a high degree of gender segregation. So many examples from there: I went to a boys' only school, I dreaded going to social events as a teenager because I'd invariably get called a male over and over again, I was never allowed to have female friends, I was told that all men went through puberty and that the feeling of hatred I developed towards my body during it was just something I had to deal with. I've heard the words in my native language for "boy" and "man" used thousands of times for me, and each time was a little cut on my soul. Now that I've transitioned, I can say with some confidence that "girl" and "woman" don't have nearly the same effect on me.
> For example I was able to decouple "appearing masculine" from "being attractive to attractive women", but I assume that most probably equate the two concepts as a single idea.
I don't think they're the same idea but I think (at least for heterosexual men) manliness is closely associated with being attractive in that fashion. In other words, I'm not sure that decoupling the two ideas is something most people would consider useful. (This is a recurring pattern in these discussions. We are a social species and our biology and social interactions are bound together. Is gender identity a social construct or something driven by biology? The answer is "yes, there are components of both".)
In any case, many of the cis men I've posed this question to were queer. Some of them said they experienced a deep revulsion at the thought of growing breasts, and of course gynecomastia can cause a great deal of anguish in cisgender men in an experience that reminds me a lot of my own gender dysphoria in the other direction: https://www.vice.com/en/article/vv5ajj/gynecomastia-chop-the-things-off-the-plight-of-boys-who-grow-breasts
I'm really happy people are exploring estrogen for topical uses such as scalp growth! People should feel free to mold their bodies into whatever works best for them. (For me, hair loss was a big worry since everyone in my family has rather severe forms of it. I transitioned before it became a relevant factor, though.)
> One of the best ways to find out what a stereotypical woman is is to ask a transwoman why she "feels" like a woman. There is a high likelihood that long hair, high-pitched voice, make-up, dresses, breasts, etc. will be features that make the list.
As a trans woman who is also genderqueer -- no? I don't wear dresses or have a high-pitched voice. I do have a pretty strong sense that I'm a woman and that I should be treated by society as such, as well as a deep discomfort at my endogenous sex characteristics and feeling much better when I'm on female hormones.
There are many genderqueer and butch trans women, it's just that in the past in order to get the medical care you needed you had to present as a stereotypical woman. The selection pressure was strong.
Your statement could certainly be true in an alternate universe, but it isn't true in ours. If you say you don't have a "gender identity" -- would you really be OK if you had a female name, were treated as a woman day-to-day, used she/her pronouns and were on estrogen rather than testosterone? In my experience most cis men would answer no. Keep in mind that gender identity is the concept that we've created to explain gender dysphoria. It often manifests as an innate sense (like it does for me) but doesn't always have to do so.
Hi! Trans person here, here are my thoughts.
When I talk to people inside trans communities the argument against transmedicalism is typically big tent logic. "We want to avoid having overly prescriptive definitions of what it means to be trans because that discourages exploration and leads to a lot of "am I *really* trans" which is counterproductive because goodharting, among other things.
That said, I can't think of anyone I know personally who simultaneously identifies as trans and is not at least taking cross sex hormones, surgery is somewhat less common but I'm an outlier among my trans friends in considering surgery to be completely off the table.
I think the critique here applies much better to non-binary people.
I think when trans people talk about what it is to be a woman there's a miscommunication, because for people early in transition their focus is often on passing. Passing is a goal because it makes you less vulnerable and means you'll be gendered correctly more consistently, misgendering tends to trigger neuroses because it reminds you of the ways you fail to pass, typically with a focus on secondary sex characteristics.
Ime it's pretty common for trans women far along in their transition to be much less overtly feminine because they no longer have anything to prove, to themselves or others.
This notion that trans people commonly focus on gender stereotypes as a defining aspect of their identity is, ime, just totally wrong. I personally consider myself a tomboy, one of my MtF friends considers themselves to be butch.
And, frankly trans people tend to focus much more on *trans* stereotypes than binary gender stereotypes i.e "I'm definitely a transwoman because I was so focused on an algebraic topology textbook I forgot to eat until 7pm"
If there is a better article that sums up my particular thoughts and feelings about this subject, I've yet to find one. I am 100% right there with you.
> If being treated like a woman is hard to put into words, is it easier to describe what being treated like a man was like? Would it be easier to describe it in terms of the difference between the two? I see the phrase "treated as a X" used often, but I find it very very odd how little elaboration there is.
I don't know where you grew up, but I grew up in a non-western society with a high degree of gender segregation. So many examples from there: I went to a boys' only school, I dreaded going to social events as a teenager because I'd invariably get called a male over and over again, I was never allowed to have female friends, I was told that all men went through puberty and that the feeling of hatred I developed towards my body during it was just something I had to deal with. I've heard the words in my native language for "boy" and "man" used thousands of times for me, and each time was a little cut on my soul. Now that I've transitioned, I can say with some confidence that "girl" and "woman" don't have nearly the same effect on me.
> For example I was able to decouple "appearing masculine" from "being attractive to attractive women", but I assume that most probably equate the two concepts as a single idea.
I don't think they're the same idea but I think (at least for heterosexual men) manliness is closely associated with being attractive in that fashion. In other words, I'm not sure that decoupling the two ideas is something most people would consider useful. (This is a recurring pattern in these discussions. We are a social species and our biology and social interactions are bound together. Is gender identity a social construct or something driven by biology? The answer is "yes, there are components of both".)
In any case, many of the cis men I've posed this question to were queer. Some of them said they experienced a deep revulsion at the thought of growing breasts, and of course gynecomastia can cause a great deal of anguish in cisgender men in an experience that reminds me a lot of my own gender dysphoria in the other direction: https://www.vice.com/en/article/vv5ajj/gynecomastia-chop-the-things-off-the-plight-of-boys-who-grow-breasts
I'm really happy people are exploring estrogen for topical uses such as scalp growth! People should feel free to mold their bodies into whatever works best for them. (For me, hair loss was a big worry since everyone in my family has rather severe forms of it. I transitioned before it became a relevant factor, though.)
> One of the best ways to find out what a stereotypical woman is is to ask a transwoman why she "feels" like a woman. There is a high likelihood that long hair, high-pitched voice, make-up, dresses, breasts, etc. will be features that make the list.
As a trans woman who is also genderqueer -- no? I don't wear dresses or have a high-pitched voice. I do have a pretty strong sense that I'm a woman and that I should be treated by society as such, as well as a deep discomfort at my endogenous sex characteristics and feeling much better when I'm on female hormones.
There are many genderqueer and butch trans women, it's just that in the past in order to get the medical care you needed you had to present as a stereotypical woman. The selection pressure was strong.
Your statement could certainly be true in an alternate universe, but it isn't true in ours. If you say you don't have a "gender identity" -- would you really be OK if you had a female name, were treated as a woman day-to-day, used she/her pronouns and were on estrogen rather than testosterone? In my experience most cis men would answer no. Keep in mind that gender identity is the concept that we've created to explain gender dysphoria. It often manifests as an innate sense (like it does for me) but doesn't always have to do so.